Saturday, September 18, 2004
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Some people are still trying to have browser wars. Now it is apparently between Firefox and IE. What a misguided concept.

 

Star Trek covered the issue years ago in an episode titled “Let that be Your Last Battlefield” (which is probably the only good episode in all of season 3). In this episode there are two characters. One, named Lokei, has black skin on the left side and white skin on the right. Another, Bele, has black on the right and white on the left.

 

The point of the episode is to illustrate just how inane the concept of racism really is. But the lesson is easily extended to any scenario where meaningless differences are used as a divisive technique. This is true of the silly arguments between VB and C#, Ford and Chevy, and is equally true of the so-called “browser wars” of today.

 

When two things are identical except for superficial differences then it is a massive waste of time and energy to get worked up over who picks which thing. People who consider themselves “superior” for picking on set of superficial differences are simply (not to pull any punches) idiots.

 

Years ago when I was a DEC VAX guy we used DEC branded VT terminals (VT52, then VT100 and VT220).

 

Another company, Wyse, had VT terminals that were cheaper so we switched to them. These terminals also had a couple odd features we didn't use – after all, we still had lots of DEC terminals, so we stuck with the common (standard) ESC sequences.

 

Browsers are the same thing. Since HTML has stagnated (or was that standardized?), it doesn't really matter what browser you use. Who cares? Virtually all web sites out there use HTML 3.2, because that’s the de facto standard that works reasonably well on all terminals – oops, I mean browsers.

 

The difference between having tabs or not, the specific icons on the toolbar, or how favorites are organized are immaterial. In the end, all the current browsers pretty much understand the same ESC sequences (except now those sequences are HTML – whoop de doo).

 

Sure, some people are foolish enough to use the browser as a programming platform (as in using client-side script to do a rich UI). Those poor people are stuck with IE (or whatever browser they targeted), but that is a poor strategy anyway. Note the total lack of development tools support for client-side programming. There's not a vendor out there who is encouraging or enabling client-side programming. It is a total dead-end wasted investment in the long run.

 

No reputable Internet company is foolish enough to go down the client-side script road. Only misguided IT shops are doing this, and they are going to get burned over time...

 

If you want a rich client, use Windows or GNOME or KDE. That’s what these technologies were designed for!!!! Don’t bastardize a terminal/browser into doing something way beyond its design parameters. That’s like using a duck as a pack animal when there are perfectly good mules and horses standing right there.

 

In the end, when you look at IE or Firefox, either switch, or don't switch. I honestly don't see where it matters. This is fundamentally the same debate as whether to switch from VT terminal vendor X to vendor Y - only now the price for both products is zero.

 

IE is black on the left side, and Firefox is black on the right. Other than superficial differences they are the same damn thing.

 

In the Star Trek episode the two “races” had fought so long and hard that they’d literally destroyed their planet. Lokei and Bele were the only members of their world left alive. Thankfully the “browser war” is unlikely to decimate Earth or even the IT industry, but it certainly does have the potential to waste more time and energy than free products can possibly be worth…

Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:27:26 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)  #    Disclaimer  |  Comments [10]  | 

Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:28:07 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"No reputable Internet company is foolish enough to go down the client-side script road."

Gmail.Google.com
Baldrick Jameson
Sunday, September 19, 2004 3:57:01 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
OK, so you got me - I'm not omnicient :)

But seriously what I was referring to is the idea of writing a "rich client" in the browser. I've seen this done by various companies as they try to build internal business systems comparable to Windows applications, but in the browser. That is a _terribly_ expensive proposition, even if you only support a single browser. And it is a ridiculously expensive proposition if you support multiple browsers.
Monday, September 20, 2004 1:32:42 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Not agree IE IS platform,look at Longhorn's XAML initiative it's just managed/CLR based browser but you say IE is only terminal,hmm...Why ASP.NET such more popular today than win apps?What the difference between win app and particular browser orientation?
You say no tools support?How about Dreamweather/Visual Studio/TopStyle?
Hosted environment(smart clients,is you like) is the future-not winforms or anything like that IMHO.
Andrey Skvortsov
Monday, September 20, 2004 2:25:26 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I would love to read your thoughts on backbase (www.backbase.com) then. This company's core business is a scripting library for what they call rich internet applications. Or, can I already guess your reply?
Monday, September 20, 2004 2:47:49 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
IE is a security nightmare, allowing everything from spyware to full system hacks to be sent to your computer.. this is all because the brwoser is so tightly integrated with the OS.

that SHOULD be reason enough alone to make the switch. i mean who wants their computer to be hijacked?

as for it being pointless to be going the webapp route... i don't think your argument of "THE BROWSER WASNT DESIGNED FOR RICH CLIENTS" holds any water. i mean, the computer itself was designed for some basic mathematical tasks... and look at all the crazy shit it can do now!
Monday, September 20, 2004 4:12:08 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Whilst I agree that Windows (or gnome etc) is the best platform for a Rich Client Interface, I work in business after business who deliver rich clients over browser.

Im doing it now, in fact the ASP.NET scripting library loves IE and you get much better (Certainly closer to your design) if you use HTML4 but any other browser than IE gets demoted to 3.2.

I dont want to do it like this, certainly for my administrative tools that need functionality, but so far trying to deploy windows apps in my enterprise fails consistently, despite having all the groovy ms deployment tools.

In the past I used wyse vt220's but again they where everywhere and I took use of the extra codes, so I guess nothing ever changes for me.


It all comes down to Just cos you can do a thing doesnt mean you should, I wish I didnt have to but browser deployment means low support cost, click once doesnt cut it, yet, we've tried and despite all the fancy MS enterprise deployment tools it didnt work, it still took lots of time to go round with a disk for those users and install the framework and go into AD and sort out security for those users. Lets face it we despite best efforts unless your enterprise was designed properly upfront with all the dependancies in the default build its not going to work. All enterprise computer growth has been organic, even with AD re-fits not all companies spend the money to upgrade the machines to cope.

So Im stuck with IE as a platform.
SimonT
Monday, September 20, 2004 12:19:07 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I think your point is dead spot on Rock. I work for a joint that is enamored with Heavy clients, written in IE/JScript/DHMTL. Not web pages, but internal apps never intended for outward facing placement, predominantly for data entry. Even with an extensive developer base (myself included) with a number of years exclusively dedicated to it, it is still very brittle and low performing and only reasonably stable. We can produce higher quality products in drastically less time using Winforms (and I'm sure that gnome/gtk/SWT etc.. would be similar) yet the organization is reluctant to dive in. The upper upper management is unsure they want to risk not being able to run these apps on browsers because of a misguided belief that what we produce is somehow portable to Mozilla or some other non IE browser. We have pointed out time and time again that the code we are producing is only IE6 for Windows compatible (and frighteningly, our cert group still hasn't tested XP SP2...yikes). My direct management is reluctant to back Windows Forms because in their mind it's not "proven technology..." Whatever. They are also unimpressed with the Click Once deployment (or whatever it's called). They are concerned that it won't work as good as it has in prototyping. So this long story agrees with your original premise but I'm in the same boat as SimonT and the rest. We're stuck with browser clients because of deployment, stuck with traditional middle tier objects for data access (in reality circumventing the security model of the enterprise) and stuck with limited support for developers in this arena.
Mike Shaffer
Monday, September 20, 2004 8:05:55 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Need more fuel for the fire? Apparently Google is developing a Browser now:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/21/0011207

Browser market fragmentation is good news for Smart Client technology so I'm happy. Today, too many clients are asking for too much from web-based based solutions. Yes, I'll deliver pages packed full of whizzo IE only features, but significant complexity is required to support them and http's stateless model. WinForms solutions would take a fraction of the time.
Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:23:45 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
The thing that is not superficial is that IE is lagging behind in its CSS implementation that makes FireFox the winner for me. If IE can get it together on the CSS and other non-HTML standards then I would be all for it.
dru sellers
Friday, June 03, 2005 2:25:18 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
As the person who posted before me said, IE is lagging severely in terms of CSS. This browser war is not a matter of what it looks like, the superficial things do not matter, you are right about that.

IE falls behind when it comes to:

* Security (There are more holes in IE than Firefox)
* Development Tools (Firefox's JS console is infinitely more useful than IE's half assed pop-up)
* CSS capabilities. Firefox supports a lot more CSS properties that IE doesn't even recognize.
* Sorry to say, but tabbed browsing owns. Who wants to have 14 little IE windows in their task bar? That's the only superficial thing that I will list.

So... why is IE so bad if MS is such a superpower? That's exactly why. MS is so large, that they won't lift a finger unless they feel threatened. As long as IE is used by 90+% of people who browse the web, they won't make any major changes or improvements any time soon. Once Firefox becomes threateningly popular, then they will do everything that Firefox does, and try to do more, but until then, we have to be limited to designing to IE without some of the fruits of CSS and some of the shortcomings of IE.

As for JavaScript, it's use should be very limited, and only for enhancements to your pages, NEVER to something that is vital to your page. JavaScript sometimes can be the ONLY way that you can get something done that you want. Unfortunately, it has suffered the scrutiny of being one of the biggest security holes in IE (when IE was the only option).
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